[Trombone-l] A question on alternate(?) positions.

[Christopher R Tune]

I agree about those two as the very first you should learn.  Also, I agree
that you are asking the right questions.

Your wording for those questions contains some wording that leads me to
believe that you are considering that some analogy exists between your
native instrument and ours.  It turns out that SOME of that is true and
som very good analogy from clarinet fingering choice parameters over to
our trombone position choices does exist.  The main difference is the
awkwardness of finger "sets" switching, and slide position "throwing".
With fingers, sometimes a certain switch (the two fingerings require
awkward sets of fingers, even sometimes on both hands, to be switched out)
might push toward the alternate being preferable, even though the
alternate is not as easy to produce or doesn't sound as good.  We've got a
similar scenario.

You are correct in assuming that the main reasons for the use of the
"alternates" is to allow for same direction slide movement, and for the
production of fast passages. There are some generalizations which allow us
to make intelligent decisions about slide position choice:

In general, the positions closer to first position will sound "better",
given all other considerations.  By this I mean that the middle F (F below
middle C) in first position will generally sound better as far as tone
quality than it's twin in Sixth position.  I'd say with most horns the
shorter slide extension is the better than the further slide extension. .
(there may be exceptions. . remember, this is a "generalization", not a
RULE, or something like that. . this is supposed to "help", not generate
disagreement).

[the reason for this is interesting. . the longer the position, the more
cylindrical the bore profile-i.e. the percentage of the horn with the same
bore. . this is optimized somewhere in the more upper position lengths]

It is often important to have an option where our choice of position is
based primarily upon keeping the slide moving in the same direction.  An
example would be where we are asked to play F, G, A, and then Bb in a
triplet followed by a single Bb. I'd say that I'm going to use F in sixth
provided there is any real speed to this "riff".  If it is very slow then
I will use first position F, for tone.

Same for all the other choices.  So, for the Brahms chorales in the
symphonies, I'd say they are slow enough that I'd choose my best tone
quality positions.  For the storm scene in Guillaume Tell, I'd be seeking
to get the slide lined up to allow for accents to be on "starter notes"
which allow for as much continuous slide movement as possible. I would not
for a moment consider using "tone"-oriented positions.

Fast passages are played using smooth continous motions of the slide as
much as possible (there are going to be spots where quick movement is
unavoidable, and therefore you need to be able to do that too!).  It turns
out that this orchestral excerpt is a great study of just this technique.

Tune

PS-it turns out that the so-called "alternates" start with E, and F below
middle C as we mentioned above and the region (if you think visually, and
spacially as I do this will make sense) with alternates grows as you go up
higher partial by partial . . up on the next partial we have Ab, A, and
Bb, before we get to a "primary" note. .B natural in fourth position.

As we go further (we've seen two notes and now three notes) we get B
natural in seventh, then C, then Db, then D in fourth (we now have four of
the alternates).  This region keeps growing like this (and next we don't
get a linear add because the notes are out of tune in normal positions. .
but you get the general idea) As we get in the high register notes and
optional ones are only a few positions from one another and several
alternates exist for the same note. Those are really useful for jazz
playing (Rosolino used this extensively also Fontana).

Anyway, very good question and a crucial one to being a truly top-notch
trombonist.

On Mon, March 23, 2009 9:45 pm, Eric Swanson wrote:
> Jeremy,
>
> I think you have the right idea.  At least you're asking the right
> questions, anyway.  If you are pretty much a beginner on trombone, I
> wouldn't worry too much about all the alternates for now with a
> couple exceptions.  There are a lot of times when you have something
> like C, D, Eb above the bass clef where it just makes a lot of sense
> to go ahead and use the fourth position D instead of coming back to
> first, so I would go ahead and get in the  habit of using that one.
> The other one would be using fourth line F in sixth position when you
> are already out on that end of the slide.  Learn that one too for
> sure.  I think those will get you started off on the right foot.
>
> Eric Swanson
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 9:40 PM, Jeremy Yager wrote:
>
>> Hey Listers,
>> I am a clarinet player who has been invited to play trombone with a
>> local
>> trombone choir that I'm arranging some music for.  I marched
>> baritone in
>> college--in fact, I made a brief appearance on this list a few
>> years back.
>> I'd like to be useful to this choir rather than just making
>> flatulent noises
>> behind a stand, so I'm working pretty hard to get some decent slide
>> work
>> going.
>>
>> So, I have a question on alternate positions after reading the '51
>> Positions' thread.  Do you use alternate positions whenever it is
>> the most
>> convenient (in terms of same slide direction or short position
>> changes), or
>> do you reserve them for technical passages when it is difficult
>> otherwise?
>> In other words, would a competent trombone player be concerned
>> about slide
>> direction and slide travel distance for a passage if playing standard
>> positions didn't affect the musicality of the passage in question?
>>
>> As a reference, on clarinet, for many notes we have a basic
>> fingering and
>> then alternates that come into play when it is technically
>> difficult (or
>> impossible!) to reach the basic fingering from the previous or next
>> note.
>> However, alternate fingerings are not usually preferred when the basic
>> fingering is reachable due to tuning or tone quality concerns.
>> Does such an
>> distinction exist for trombone?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jeremy
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Chris Tune

Remember:

"It's music, not brain surgery. . ."
anon