[Trombone-l] microphones question

Thu Mar 5 13:24:30 CST 2009

Unfortunately, my answer may not be what you would like.  I think it is
similar to what Bruce Swedien says in "Make Mine Music".  You need to use
your hearing to determine what is going to happen in the tracking and in
the mix.

I think trombone is particularly odd in the sense that the "character"
content in the sound is very, very subtle, in relation to the main
content.  So no wonder that the delayed reflections coming in through
reverb tend to remove the "character" sounds.

I have not ever mixed an AKG C1000.  I've just seen them on the mic stands
in front of me.  It could very well be that I'd reject that mic too. Those
other mics are an interesting list of recording equipment--useful.

I am somewhat of a fan of Audio Technica. I feel they are somehow not
given the credit they deserve (apparently the TV folk do like them and
they are popular there) given what I've heard come out of their mics.

 As I mentioned, I think the MIDIVERB IV was OK considering that is
hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper than those other verbs mentioned
(but it is in no way a Pro outboard unit). Sadly, no digital output.  So
maybe looking into getting that Altiverb is an idea (it is another
"convolution" reverb, which means it creates the verb by storing settings
derived by analyzing real rooms and then coming up with the settings, and
number of reflections needed from that analysis)

I'm using the Kjaerhaus Audio "Classic Reverb" as a VST device.  The price
is right (free).  Likely this is not up to pro standards but the add-in
has all the settings I need to tweak the reverberation to what I need.

Also, it is important to note that reverb has a value all its own as a
participant in the effect delivered by a mix.  I am now mixing myself
playing "You Go to My Head" as solo trombone over the Aebersold trio. I've
decided to use plenty of reverb, since it adds to the mood I've achieved
here.  It has a very "late night" . . ."rain outside". . .the "streets of
Paris are all lonely and empty" feel to it. . .

It could well be done very dry, but then I would have wanted a different
kind of performance.  My playing was open, without any mute.  The track I
captured was mostly real clean playing with vibrato both as "terminal,
modern style" and through the whole held note older style.  The jazz
(there is really only one chorus right now. . .I must have gotten
frustrated over something and dropped playing) is louder than an Urbie
style, but pretty clean, up front and my typical combo swing/bop with a
touch of Pankow or maybe even DeSousa here and there (what a hodgepodge. .
)

So what I'm saying, and this seems confirmed by other admirable sound
persons, the end result is the important thing.  Almost any device, or
choice of setup real world, or digital world, COULD possibly be what you
need.  You ultimately have to experiment, and do so having an idea what
the devices provide.  My skills are not nearly what they could be if I
spent years working with a Swedien, or a John Kraus, then I'd be confident
that I was up to full basic skill.

Anyway I sure hope you and your friend and any others who read these
messages have great luck with recording and joy with the sound of music.

Tune

Tune

On Thu, March 5, 2009 4:45 am, Hugo García Sampedro wrote:
> Chris, Thanks for all your valuable feedback!
>
> by the way... you wrote:
>
> --- ...so it is very dry without added reverb. . but I'm OK because I have
> good revebs in Cubase and also a MidiVerb IV) ---
>
> How much verb is enough for the trombone? I know that that will depends on
> lots of factors, from the acoustic characteristics of the recording room
> to the kind of music, other instruments,  what you want to do with the
> verb, etc. etc. etc. BUT I'm asking "generally speaking"... In my
> experience I have found that reverb tend to kill all  the warm side of the
> trombone sound... I found (obviously is just my humble opinion) that verbs
> are better for saxophones (i.e.) but the trombone sound becomes more
> "liquid" and in a ballad for example it lost that  texture of the trombone
> timbre, no matter if we are speaking of a hardware reverb or a computer
> plugin (eventhough they may be way long differet...)
>
> What do you think about this?
> Thanks again
> cordially, Hugo GS
>
>
> --- El mié 4-mar-09, Christopher R Tune <christune at christune.com>
> escribió:
> De: Christopher R Tune <christune at christune.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Trombone-l] microphones question
> Para: hgsamp at yahoo.com
> Cc: "trombone list" <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>
> Fecha: miércoles, 4 de marzo de 2009, 4:49 pm
>
> Well, it sounds like you have a space that could be used to record chamber
> groups. . .perhaps like a large living room in medium-large to large
> homes.
>
> Of course, you may already be aware that the space itself will likely be
> the biggest portion of acoustic influence regarding recording sound.
>
> Sometimes you are very lucky and the room itself is conducive to
> recording. Normally that seems to happen in such a way as to need some
> added reverberation, due to the room being very dry without added reverb
> (my living room is like this. .it has wall-to-wall carpet, and many
> drapes, pictures, booksheves, and cabinets, so it is very dry without
> added reverb. . but I'm OK because I have good revebs in Cubase and also a
> MidiVerb IV)
>
> Sounds like you need general purpose wind mics likely condenser mics which
> could be used in pairs to record sections, and which also could be put
> into different situations to allow for recording piano, or strings.
>
> The AKG C1000 is one of those mics.  There are similar mics from Shure,
> AT, and Rode.  These are small capsue condenser mics which have low
> self-noise, wide, flat response, and which are physically not hard to put
> into the crowded area where the musical instrument and player are, but
> also work well on high booms as stereo capture mics. Luckily, these are
> not ridiculously expensive.
>
> I found that my venerable old AR ATM 31, which is now discontinued, seems
> to still be available in a modified form.  This mic was not able to take
> phantom power, but had to use a battery as it's only power source.  Worked
> great once placed right.  I only have one, so I can't opine on stereo
> coverage of large groups.
>
> This mic appears to now be called the ATM8031, which is classified by AT
> as a "Broadcast & Professional mic".  They say it is a handheld
> mic, but
> I've never used it this way, except that I've placed it on a stand to
> cover me in combo or small band work.  It works just like a SM58 in that
> context.  For my mic I need to be sure to put a fresh AA battery in
>
> The trombone sounds great on this mic, and it rejects sound as well as
> most cardioid pattern mics out there.
>
> I think those who said to rent a few differnt types and use them in
> differnt contexts, are closest to the mark.  Then, once you have narrowed
> down to a few different mic models, I'd say go on to eBay, or Craigslist
> and find someone unloading several of these.  Get them cheap, because mics
> really are sort of overpriced based upon "mic myth", and emotion.
>
> When you look at the video on Discovery channel, where a Neumann mic is
> manufactured, you can see that the entire process and manufacture is
> really not hugely complicated.  There is great quality control, with each
> mic being thoroughly examined, but that does not truely add thousands to
> the cost of this device.  What is going on, is that famous recordings were
> made with Neumanns (old fifties jazz, Basie, etc.; Beatles, Michael
> Jackson, on and on) and that has added to the myth, which says you need
> this mic to sound good.
>
> Reality is that you need to be a good musician or singer to get a good
> performance.  That is the hard part, NOT getting a good recording (there
> is some difficulty, but not nearly as much as developing "chops").
> It is
> also hard to get so you realize that you are the problem, NOT the mic.
> That is extremely stressful, so it is rarely achieved. Paul McCartney,
> whether you are a fan, or not, was a very good sounding singer.  That is
> why the Neumann picked up good sound on those Beatles recordings.
>
> Tune
>
> On Tue, March 3, 2009 11:59 am, Hugo García Sampedro wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> Just to give you thanks for all your answers concerning this mics issue.
>>
>> I do have a SM57 for home use and stage (just in case they give me crap
>> I
>> use mine... ) ... but my question was because I have a friend that own a
>> "medium" size studio (much more than a home studio, a lot less
> than a
>> really pro one) and as he is thinking in invest in a good wind
>> instruments
>> microphone... so I just go to the sources... real playes!
>>
>> Thanks again, and take care
>> -Hugo GS
>>
>>
>> --- El sáb 28-feb-09, Hugo García Sampedro <hgsamp at yahoo.com>
> escribió:
>> De: Hugo García Sampedro <hgsamp at yahoo.com>
>> Asunto: [Trombone-l] microphones question
>> Para: "trombone List" <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>,
> "trombone list"
>> <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>
>> Fecha: sábado, 28 de febrero de 2009, 3:41 pm
>>
>> hello list
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know about your different experiences in recording studios 
> or
>> your expertise in audio ingenierng, but I would like to know what are
>> in your experience, the microphones more used to record trombones and
>> low
>> brass in general  in professional studios. I'm not asking about
> brands but
>> I'm interested in the
>> types of mics (dynamic, condensers, ribbons, polar patterns,  etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Many Thanks!
>>
>> -Hugo GS
>>
>>
>>       Yahoo! Cocina
>> Recetas prácticas y comida saludable
>> http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/
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>>
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>
>
> Chris Tune
>
> Remember:
>
> "It's music, not brain surgery. . ."
> anon
>
>
>
>
>       Yahoo! Cocina
> Recetas prácticas y comida saludable
> http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/

Chris Tune

Remember:

"It's music, not brain surgery. . ."
anon