[Trombone-l] microphones question

[Moran, Doug]

Hugo,

Regarding reverb, a little can go a long way on some sources as you 
indicated.  The only computer based reverb that I have heard that I 
liked was Altiverb.  New ones come out every day, so I'd bet there are 
some out there that sound good.  Which ones have you listened to?  As 
far as external boxes for basic reverb, you have to spend a LOT of 
money to beat a Sony V-77.  These are not made any more so you would 
have to look for used units, and you may have to make a S/PDIF or AES 
interface box if you want to interface with the unit digitally (and I 
recommend you do that with any external box that you can).  The higher 
end Lexicon boxes are great, and the Kurzweil Rumour is fine as well.  
Just make sure the parameters of the reverb is adjustable, and a dual 
engine box is a better investment that a single engine.

As important as anything is your monitoring signal chain.  A good set 
of nearfield monitors, or if there is space a larger set of monitors.  
Self powered, or powered by a high quality amp.  Adcom made a couple 
that sell for not much these days - GFA-533 or 555 are great.  Also, 
your microphone preamps and analog to digital conversion is almost as 
important as your microphone selection.  Real studios have large mixing 
boards with high end mic preamps.  Today's crop of low end mixers will 
not help most mics.  Listen to a Shure SM-57 through a Mackie mixer and 
then listen to the same mic through a Great River or Lavry mic preamp - 
you might not believe it is the same mic.  For horns you probably want 
a pure, non-colored mic pre-amp, not a tube amp or something that adds 
"character" to the sound.

I will say that I've never heard anything out of an AKG C1000 that I 
could stand to listen to (sorry Chris) - not enough knobs on the board 
to make it usable.  For sax, a (cheaper) alternative would be a 
Sennheiser MD-421, and/or for tenor/bari an ElectroVoice RE-20.  
Electrovoice made the PL-20 for a while which is the same mic as the 
RE-20.  Small diagrapm condensors (cardiod/hypercardiod mostly) to 
consider are Audio-Technica AT-4051/4053/4049, KM-140's or KM-184's (in 
that order - 140's are not made anymore), THE CR-5s, Josephson C42s, 
and if you have a roll of cash - Schoeps 64s or 641s.  The Octava mics 
are okay, but spend the money to get the matched set from the Sound 
Room.  Taking your chances on a set from "Guitar World" is not worth 
the risk.

Best thing is to be able to try it and return it if you do not like it. 
  Since this is for a recording studio (I think you said), the large $$ 
purchases are a cost of doing business.  If this is a personal 
undertaking, you can go through money fast.  Buy it once and be happy.  
Otherwise you will buy, then sell, then buy over and over again, and 
you will end up with the higher end stuff in the end.

Doug


On Mar 5, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Hugo García Sampedro wrote:

> Chris, Thanks for all your valuable feedback!
>
> by the way... you wrote:
>
> --- ...so it is very dry without added reverb. . but I'm OK because I 
> have good revebs in Cubase and also a MidiVerb IV) ---
>
> How much verb is enough for the trombone? I know that that will 
> depends on lots of factors, from the acoustic characteristics of the 
> recording room to the kind of music, other instruments,  what you want 
> to do with the verb, etc. etc. etc. BUT I'm asking "generally 
> speaking"... In my experience I have found that reverb tend to kill 
> all  the warm side of the trombone sound... I found (obviously is just 
> my humble opinion) that verbs are better for saxophones (i.e.) but the 
> trombone sound becomes more "liquid" and in a ballad for example it 
> lost that  texture of the trombone timbre, no matter if we are 
> speaking of a hardware reverb or a computer plugin (eventhough they 
> may be way long differet...)
>
> What do you think about this?
> Thanks again
> cordially, Hugo GS
>
>
> --- El mié 4-mar-09, Christopher R Tune <christune at christune.com> 
> escribió:
> De: Christopher R Tune <christune at christune.com>
> Asunto: Re: [Trombone-l] microphones question
> Para: hgsamp at yahoo.com
> Cc: "trombone list" <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>
> Fecha: miércoles, 4 de marzo de 2009, 4:49 pm
>
> Well, it sounds like you have a space that could be used to record 
> chamber
> groups. . .perhaps like a large living room in medium-large to large
> homes.
>
> Of course, you may already be aware that the space itself will likely 
> be
> the biggest portion of acoustic influence regarding recording sound.
>
> Sometimes you are very lucky and the room itself is conducive to
> recording. Normally that seems to happen in such a way as to need some
> added reverberation, due to the room being very dry without added 
> reverb
> (my living room is like this. .it has wall-to-wall carpet, and many
> drapes, pictures, booksheves, and cabinets, so it is very dry without
> added reverb. . but I'm OK because I have good revebs in Cubase and 
> also a
> MidiVerb IV)
>
> Sounds like you need general purpose wind mics likely condenser mics 
> which
> could be used in pairs to record sections, and which also could be put
> into different situations to allow for recording piano, or strings.
>
> The AKG C1000 is one of those mics.  There are similar mics from Shure,
> AT, and Rode.  These are small capsue condenser mics which have low
> self-noise, wide, flat response, and which are physically not hard to 
> put
> into the crowded area where the musical instrument and player are, but
> also work well on high booms as stereo capture mics. Luckily, these are
> not ridiculously expensive.
>
> I found that my venerable old AR ATM 31, which is now discontinued, 
> seems
> to still be available in a modified form.  This mic was not able to 
> take
> phantom power, but had to use a battery as it's only power source.  
> Worked
> great once placed right.  I only have one, so I can't opine on stereo
> coverage of large groups.
>
> This mic appears to now be called the ATM8031, which is classified by 
> AT
> as a "Broadcast & Professional mic".  They say it is a handheld
> mic, but
> I've never used it this way, except that I've placed it on a stand to
> cover me in combo or small band work.  It works just like a SM58 in 
> that
> context.  For my mic I need to be sure to put a fresh AA battery in
>
> The trombone sounds great on this mic, and it rejects sound as well as
> most cardioid pattern mics out there.
>
> I think those who said to rent a few differnt types and use them in
> differnt contexts, are closest to the mark.  Then, once you have 
> narrowed
> down to a few different mic models, I'd say go on to eBay, or 
> Craigslist
> and find someone unloading several of these.  Get them cheap, because 
> mics
> really are sort of overpriced based upon "mic myth", and emotion.
>
> When you look at the video on Discovery channel, where a Neumann mic is
> manufactured, you can see that the entire process and manufacture is
> really not hugely complicated.  There is great quality control, with 
> each
> mic being thoroughly examined, but that does not truely add thousands 
> to
> the cost of this device.  What is going on, is that famous recordings 
> were
> made with Neumanns (old fifties jazz, Basie, etc.; Beatles, Michael
> Jackson, on and on) and that has added to the myth, which says you need
> this mic to sound good.
>
> Reality is that you need to be a good musician or singer to get a good
> performance.  That is the hard part, NOT getting a good recording 
> (there
> is some difficulty, but not nearly as much as developing "chops").
> It is
> also hard to get so you realize that you are the problem, NOT the mic.
> That is extremely stressful, so it is rarely achieved. Paul McCartney,
> whether you are a fan, or not, was a very good sounding singer.  That 
> is
> why the Neumann picked up good sound on those Beatles recordings.
>
> Tune
>
> On Tue, March 3, 2009 11:59 am, Hugo García Sampedro wrote:
>> Hello
>>
>> Just to give you thanks for all your answers concerning this mics 
>> issue.
>>
>> I do have a SM57 for home use and stage (just in case they give me 
>> crap I
>> use mine... ) ... but my question was because I have a friend that 
>> own a
>> "medium" size studio (much more than a home studio, a lot less than a
>> really pro one) and as he is thinking in invest in a good wind 
>> instruments
>> microphone... so I just go to the sources... real playes!
>>
>> Thanks again, and take care
>> -Hugo GS
>>
>>
>> --- El sáb 28-feb-09, Hugo García Sampedro <hgsamp at yahoo.com> 
>> escribió:
>> De: Hugo García Sampedro <hgsamp at yahoo.com>
>> Asunto: [Trombone-l] microphones question
>> Para: "trombone List" <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>,"trombone list"
>> <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>
>> Fecha: sábado, 28 de febrero de 2009, 3:41 pm
>>
>> hello list
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know about your different experiences in recording studios or
>> your expertise in audio ingenierng, but I would like to know what are
>> in your experience, the microphones more used to record trombones and 
>> low
>> brass in general  in professional studios. I'm not asking about 
>> brands but
>> I'm interested in the
>> types of mics (dynamic, condensers, ribbons, polar patterns,  etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Many Thanks!
>>
>> -Hugo GS