[Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve Register (not an immaculate conception)

Fri Apr 3 10:35:20 CDT 2009

Ditto

J.c.S.

---- Gabriel Langfur <glangfur at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 
> Nice conclusion Galen. 
> 
> I have found it extremely useful to do lip slurs with one or both valves down. Helps pretty much every aspect of my playing. 
> 
> Gabe
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Galen Zinn <grzinn at astound.net>
> To: Bob Koester <bobkoester at msn.com>
> Cc: Trombone-l at samford.edu
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 3:53:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve Register (not an immaculate conception)
> 
> It seems that I may have muddled the main thrust of my
> observations/questions. Sorry.
> 
> Thanks particularly to Bob Koester, and others of you who realized that my
> major concern is with differences in tone quality and tonal response between
> the open horn and certain alternate position valved notes. I don¹t even own
> any of those extra horns for doubling; I just tacked on the part about
> doubling as an after thought because I imagined that ³doublers² might face
> similar problems that bass trombonists must conquer in order to move
> smoothly back and forth between the open horn and valved notes. If I ever do
> any doubling (remote chance at 71 yrs of age) it would most likely be only
> as a euphoniumist. Not sure that I really want to beat my head against the
> learning curve required for valve/finger technique just now. Anyway, I do
> have an injured ring finger that I would have to overcome on my right hand.
> 
> Main point:
> 
> I do hear and feel major differences between the open horn (shorter pipe
> length) vs.. valved notes (sometimes extreme pipe length) with regard to
> tonal quality and tonal response. I do find that a lackadaisical embouchure
> approach which I might tend to use for more familiar open horn notes really
> does not work for many of the valved notes. I find that valved notes tend to
> remind me of a French horn (a more distant quality), or to be tubby sounding
> like some high register tones on a tuba, rather than the more immediate tone
> and response that I get on the open notes on the bass trombone. I find,
> however, that the converse is true, the embouchure that I must use to get
> good tone quality (non French horny sounding) and immediate  tonal response
> (no burble) in the valve register does work on the open horn.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> One should use the embouchure that works for valved notes because it also
> works for open notes. That¹s it in a nutshell.
> 
> Thanks for your time and interest in this topic. I appreciate your
> expertise.
> 
> Galen
> 
> 
> On 4/1/09 7:35 PM, "Bob Koester" <bobkoester at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> > Dear Galen,
> > 
> > I've inserted some thoughts into your text.  Before you read them please let
> > me caution you to not "over brain" this whole process.  (Every time I "over
> > brain" I end up with problems).
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Regards, 
> > 
> > Bob 
> > Bob Koester, President MSI Financial
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> > 
> > 
> >  
> >> > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:23:46 -0700
> >> > From: grzinn at astound.net
> >> > To: Trombone-l at samford.edu
> >> > Subject: [Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve
> >> Register (not an immaculate conception)
> >> > 
> >> > I have a an inline Shires Bass Trombone with independent Bb/Gb/F/D valves
> >> > and a dual bore slide. I have discovered that I must use what I would call
> a
> >> > much more extreme embouchure set (extending my lips more forcefully inside
> >> > the mouthpiece, thus producing the vibrations more on the interior surface
> >> > of the lip tissues which requires the use of faster moving high volume air)
> >> > particularly for any notes achieved through the use of the various valve
> >> > combinations.
> > 
> >> > Forget what horn/mouthpiece combination you have, it doesn't matter as your
> >> questions involve playing the bass trombone, not a particular combination.
> >> To respond to your first technical observation, does you regular practice
> >> include any no tongue/air only beginnings of notes...notice I DID NOT SAY
> >> ATTACKING notes?  This is an important concept.  If your routine does not
> >> include no tongue, I suggest and recommed that you try it.
> > 
> >> > Of late, I have worked daily at relearning alternate positions for all
> >> notes
> >> > that can be performed with less slide movement through the use of the
> >> > valves. In most cases the use of the valves throws the horn into an
> >> > immediate longer length of tubing and for most of the notes played in
> >> > alternate positions a higher partial must be used. This, to my ear changes
> >> > the tone quality to make it sound more like a French Horn being performed
> >> on
> >> > the higher partials where the notes are closer together.
> >  
> > The valve(s) make the horn longer.  So, you should listen for, to, and
> > practice to obtain the most relaxed "open" sound you can on the valve notes
> > you will use the most.  I like, for checking sound as well as intonation, to
> > play slow half or whole notes starting on second line Bb on the open horn with
> > a no tongue start for several starts.  Then, I repeat that exercise on the
> > long third position with "F" valve Bb in the same fashion.  After that, I
> > switch back and forth with the same no tongue start in ramdom cominations ie.
> > open, valve, valve, open, open....you get the idea, mix and match.  Do that
> > same exercise with all the open/valve combinations on the Bb/F side.  If you
> > think what you are doing sounds like a French horn, stop doing what you're
> > doing and go back to open tenor trombone exercises to get your ears straight.
> >> > 
> >> > This more extreme embouchure set works just as well on the ³open² or Bb
> >> horn
> >> > but I don¹t find the reverse to be true. If I slip back into older
> >> > embouchure habits that I used to use for tenor trombones with F
> >> attachments,
> >> > and attempt to blow on through one of these alternate position notes using
> >> > valves, I will ³burble² the attack of the note almost every time. So, I
> >> > guess what I¹m trying to say is that good tone quality in the valve range
> >> of
> >> > my bass trombone seems to govern the embouchure set that I must use for the
> >> > full compass of the instrument.
> >  
> > Let's not get hung up on things like as you call it "embouchure set".  It
> > sounds to me as though you are working MUCH too hard to hit a target you may
> > not be correctly identifying.  RELAX.  Go back to no tongue long tones with an
> > easy start...that means let the breath flow, don't force it to make a sound.
> > Go from there after you are really relaxed and ready to play whatever horn you
> > want to work with...and I mean work WITH, not work ON.
> >> > 
> >> > The reverse is not true; at least it doesn¹t seem to work for me. Can any
> >> of
> >> > you out there refute/explain/agree with my conclusions? Or, might there be
> >> > another variable in this experiment... my Doug Yeo Signature Bass Trombone
> >> > Mouthpiece. Perhaps the mouthpiece is not matched to me and/or the horn?
> >  
> > Again, don't worry.  Doug's piece is a fine mouthpiece.  I own one and if all
> > I did was play orchestral and other classical music I'd play it all the
> > time...I really like it.  Mostly my work is commercial and loud and requires
> > very sudden percussive attacks.  FOR ME, the Laskey 93D is a better choice at
> > least right now.
> > 
> > estion for those of you who claim to
> >> > double on alto, tenor, bass trombone, euphonium, and tuba. How do you
> >> > accomplish all this without ³burbling² attacks on notes? Apparently you
> >> have
> >> > found a single embouchure setting that works for all of the circumstances
> >> on
> >> > all of these instruments?
> >  
> > Nope.  I approach each horn with the same no tongue simplicity to start but
> > use a mouthpiece best suited for each horn.  (Didn't used to do that, but as I
> > age I see the value in setting up a horn and a mouthpiece, rather than trying
> > to do a one size fits all approach.)  Galen, I think you are worrying too
> > much.  Burbling or whatever it's called is a result of fear of failure, not a
> > combination of equipment issues.  Relax, play, and have fun.
> >  
> > Best and email me back if you want to take this discussion further.
> >  
> > Bob
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
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