[Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve Register (not an immaculate conception)

Fri Apr 3 10:34:33 CDT 2009

True on all counts, Gabe.

However, the difference is that with the slide extended, the bore returns to the inner slide bore.  So regardless, the bore profile is different either way, I suppose.  But I personally find it more even timbre-wise with a matched valve than with a larger one.  Hagemann used to proselytize this on his sight... but I guess he abandoned that idea.

Yeah, the slide crook thing... I think you are right about resistance... but it could be a "warming" effect if increased.  I think it is largely psychological. I build my bones with a crook bore which matches the outer slildes bore.

:-)

J.c.

---- Gabriel Langfur <glangfur at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 
> J.c. 
> 
> You're confusing things more here...OK, so a King 5B has the same bore in the valve section as the inner slide tubes. But that makes the instrument SMALLER when you engage the valve in 1st position than it is if you move the slide to 6th - because the outer slide tube has a significantly larger diameter than the inner, so there is a large section of handslide that is significantly larger than .547. And on most .547's and basses that bore is about the size of valve tubing. The slide crook on a Conn 8H is the same bore as the outer tubes, not the inners. On a Bach 42 it's larger than both.  
> 
> And the physicists will tell you that increasing the bore of a curve will increase resistance, not decrease it. But I've never really understood that, so I'll leave it alone. 
> 
> Gabe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "thetubameister at roadrunner.com" <thetubameister at roadrunner.com>
> To: Bob Koester <bobkoester at msn.com>; Galen Zinn <grzinn at astound.net>
> Cc: Trombone-l at samford.edu
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 6:34:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve Register (not an immaculate conception)
> 
> Sorry to have added to the Muddling (though I enjoyed the laugh, Josh!).
> 
> Try a King 5BF sometime, or a (genuine) Olds bass.  Why?  Their valve sections have the same bore as their slide, and that makes a huge difference in the timber when you engage the valve on most modern trigger bones, which always have a larger bore in the valve (especially the Bach 36B - YIKES!).  This creates an entirely different bore profile than an extended slide.  Many find the second valve on a duelie bass more useful than the F valve as the bore profile alteration is lessened slightly.
> 
> One other point - Every extended slide position has one interesting "obstruction" to the bore, in that the tubing has a larger bore through the slide crook area than the inner slide tube.  What's that do?  I've never been entirely sure, but some players put an oversize crook on the end for the same reason as the rationale for an enlarged valve bore - less "resistance" or a "darker" tone.  I'm not really sold on that idea, but I'm certainly not a fan of enlarging that crook (sounds fuzzy to me)!  But the longer the main-slide extension, the bore change in the slide is exaggerated.
> 
> Clear as mud?  Speaking of mud, I'm expecting I'll need to duck for the differing opinions this may raise :-)
> 
> Of course the above doesn't apply to a Bach 42 with a 50 slide :-)
> 
> J.c.S.
> 
> ---- Galen Zinn <grzinn at astound.net> wrote: 
> > It seems that I may have muddled the main thrust of my
> > observations/questions. Sorry.
> > 
> > Thanks particularly to Bob Koester, and others of you who realized that my
> > major concern is with differences in tone quality and tonal response between
> > the open horn and certain alternate position valved notes. I don¹t even own
> > any of those extra horns for doubling; I just tacked on the part about
> > doubling as an after thought because I imagined that ³doublers² might face
> > similar problems that bass trombonists must conquer in order to move
> > smoothly back and forth between the open horn and valved notes. If I ever do
> > any doubling (remote chance at 71 yrs of age) it would most likely be only
> > as a euphoniumist. Not sure that I really want to beat my head against the
> > learning curve required for valve/finger technique just now. Anyway, I do
> > have an injured ring finger that I would have to overcome on my right hand.
> > 
> > Main point:
> > 
> > I do hear and feel major differences between the open horn (shorter pipe
> > length) vs.. valved notes (sometimes extreme pipe length) with regard to
> > tonal quality and tonal response. I do find that a lackadaisical embouchure
> > approach which I might tend to use for more familiar open horn notes really
> > does not work for many of the valved notes. I find that valved notes tend to
> > remind me of a French horn (a more distant quality), or to be tubby sounding
> > like some high register tones on a tuba, rather than the more immediate tone
> > and response that I get on the open notes on the bass trombone. I find,
> > however, that the converse is true, the embouchure that I must use to get
> > good tone quality (non French horny sounding) and immediate  tonal response
> > (no burble) in the valve register does work on the open horn.
> > 
> > Conclusion:
> > 
> > One should use the embouchure that works for valved notes because it also
> > works for open notes. That¹s it in a nutshell.
> > 
> > Thanks for your time and interest in this topic. I appreciate your
> > expertise.
> > 
> > Galen
> > 
> > 
> > On 4/1/09 7:35 PM, "Bob Koester" <bobkoester at msn.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear Galen,
> > > 
> > > I've inserted some thoughts into your text.  Before you read them please let
> > > me caution you to not "over brain" this whole process.  (Every time I "over
> > > brain" I end up with problems).
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > Regards, 
> > > 
> > > Bob 
> > > Bob Koester, President MSI Financial
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> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > >> > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:23:46 -0700
> > >> > From: grzinn at astound.net
> > >> > To: Trombone-l at samford.edu
> > >> > Subject: [Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve
> > >> Register (not an immaculate conception)
> > >> > 
> > >> > I have a an inline Shires Bass Trombone with independent Bb/Gb/F/D valves
> > >> > and a dual bore slide. I have discovered that I must use what I would call
> > a
> > >> > much more extreme embouchure set (extending my lips more forcefully inside
> > >> > the mouthpiece, thus producing the vibrations more on the interior surface
> > >> > of the lip tissues which requires the use of faster moving high volume air)
> > >> > particularly for any notes achieved through the use of the various valve
> > >> > combinations.
> > > 
> > >> > Forget what horn/mouthpiece combination you have, it doesn't matter as your
> > >> questions involve playing the bass trombone, not a particular combination.
> > >> To respond to your first technical observation, does you regular practice
> > >> include any no tongue/air only beginnings of notes...notice I DID NOT SAY
> > >> ATTACKING notes?  This is an important concept.  If your routine does not
> > >> include no tongue, I suggest and recommed that you try it.
> > > 
> > >> > Of late, I have worked daily at relearning alternate positions for all
> > >> notes
> > >> > that can be performed with less slide movement through the use of the
> > >> > valves. In most cases the use of the valves throws the horn into an
> > >> > immediate longer length of tubing and for most of the notes played in
> > >> > alternate positions a higher partial must be used. This, to my ear changes
> > >> > the tone quality to make it sound more like a French Horn being performed
> > >> on
> > >> > the higher partials where the notes are closer together.
> > >  
> > > The valve(s) make the horn longer.  So, you should listen for, to, and
> > > practice to obtain the most relaxed "open" sound you can on the valve notes
> > > you will use the most.  I like, for checking sound as well as intonation, to
> > > play slow half or whole notes starting on second line Bb on the open horn with
> > > a no tongue start for several starts.  Then, I repeat that exercise on the
> > > long third position with "F" valve Bb in the same fashion.  After that, I
> > > switch back and forth with the same no tongue start in ramdom cominations ie.
> > > open, valve, valve, open, open....you get the idea, mix and match.  Do that
> > > same exercise with all the open/valve combinations on the Bb/F side.  If you
> > > think what you are doing sounds like a French horn, stop doing what you're
> > > doing and go back to open tenor trombone exercises to get your ears straight.
> > >> > 
> > >> > This more extreme embouchure set works just as well on the ³open² or Bb
> > >> horn
> > >> > but I don¹t find the reverse to be true. If I slip back into older
> > >> > embouchure habits that I used to use for tenor trombones with F
> > >> attachments,
> > >> > and attempt to blow on through one of these alternate position notes using
> > >> > valves, I will ³burble² the attack of the note almost every time. So, I
> > >> > guess what I¹m trying to say is that good tone quality in the valve range
> > >> of
> > >> > my bass trombone seems to govern the embouchure set that I must use for the
> > >> > full compass of the instrument.
> > >  
> > > Let's not get hung up on things like as you call it "embouchure set".  It
> > > sounds to me as though you are working MUCH too hard to hit a target you may
> > > not be correctly identifying.  RELAX.  Go back to no tongue long tones with an
> > > easy start...that means let the breath flow, don't force it to make a sound.
> > > Go from there after you are really relaxed and ready to play whatever horn you
> > > want to work with...and I mean work WITH, not work ON.
> > >> > 
> > >> > The reverse is not true; at least it doesn¹t seem to work for me. Can any
> > >> of
> > >> > you out there refute/explain/agree with my conclusions? Or, might there be
> > >> > another variable in this experiment... my Doug Yeo Signature Bass Trombone
> > >> > Mouthpiece. Perhaps the mouthpiece is not matched to me and/or the horn?
> > >  
> > > Again, don't worry.  Doug's piece is a fine mouthpiece.  I own one and if all
> > > I did was play orchestral and other classical music I'd play it all the
> > > time...I really like it.  Mostly my work is commercial and loud and requires
> > > very sudden percussive attacks.  FOR ME, the Laskey 93D is a better choice at
> > > least right now.
> > > 
> > > estion for those of you who claim to
> > >> > double on alto, tenor, bass trombone, euphonium, and tuba. How do you
> > >> > accomplish all this without ³burbling² attacks on notes? Apparently you
> > >> have
> > >> > found a single embouchure setting that works for all of the circumstances
> > >> on
> > >> > all of these instruments?
> > >  
> > > Nope.  I approach each horn with the same no tongue simplicity to start but
> > > use a mouthpiece best suited for each horn.  (Didn't used to do that, but as I
> > > age I see the value in setting up a horn and a mouthpiece, rather than trying
> > > to do a one size fits all approach.)  Galen, I think you are worrying too
> > > much.  Burbling or whatever it's called is a result of fear of failure, not a
> > > combination of equipment issues.  Relax, play, and have fun.
> > >  
> > > Best and email me back if you want to take this discussion further.
> > >  
> > > Bob
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
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