[Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve Register (not an immaculate conception)

[Galen Zinn]

Thanks J.c.S.
As far as I know, I am using THE most open bored valves (Trubore) produced
by Shires. And, yes, I have found that the Gb valve section is much more
useful to me than the F!
Galen


On 4/2/09 3:34 PM, "thetubameister at roadrunner.com"
<thetubameister at roadrunner.com> wrote:

> Sorry to have added to the Muddling (though I enjoyed the laugh, Josh!).
> 
> Try a King 5BF sometime, or a (genuine) Olds bass.  Why?  Their valve sections
> have the same bore as their slide, and that makes a huge difference in the
> timber when you engage the valve on most modern trigger bones, which always
> have a larger bore in the valve (especially the Bach 36B - YIKES!).  This
> creates an entirely different bore profile than an extended slide.  Many find
> the second valve on a duelie bass more useful than the F valve as the bore
> profile alteration is lessened slightly.
> 
> One other point - Every extended slide position has one interesting
> "obstruction" to the bore, in that the tubing has a larger bore through the
> slide crook area than the inner slide tube.  What's that do?  I've never been
> entirely sure, but some players put an oversize crook on the end for the same
> reason as the rationale for an enlarged valve bore - less "resistance" or a
> "darker" tone.  I'm not really sold on that idea, but I'm certainly not a fan
> of enlarging that crook (sounds fuzzy to me)!  But the longer the main-slide
> extension, the bore change in the slide is exaggerated.
> 
> Clear as mud?  Speaking of mud, I'm expecting I'll need to duck for the
> differing opinions this may raise :-)
> 
> Of course the above doesn't apply to a Bach 42 with a 50 slide :-)
> 
> J.c.S.
> 
> ---- Galen Zinn <grzinn at astound.net> wrote:
>> It seems that I may have muddled the main thrust of my
>> observations/questions. Sorry.
>> 
>> Thanks particularly to Bob Koester, and others of you who realized that my
>> major concern is with differences in tone quality and tonal response between
>> the open horn and certain alternate position valved notes. I don¹t even own
>> any of those extra horns for doubling; I just tacked on the part about
>> doubling as an after thought because I imagined that ³doublers² might face
>> similar problems that bass trombonists must conquer in order to move
>> smoothly back and forth between the open horn and valved notes. If I ever do
>> any doubling (remote chance at 71 yrs of age) it would most likely be only
>> as a euphoniumist. Not sure that I really want to beat my head against the
>> learning curve required for valve/finger technique just now. Anyway, I do
>> have an injured ring finger that I would have to overcome on my right hand.
>> 
>> Main point:
>> 
>> I do hear and feel major differences between the open horn (shorter pipe
>> length) vs.. valved notes (sometimes extreme pipe length) with regard to
>> tonal quality and tonal response. I do find that a lackadaisical embouchure
>> approach which I might tend to use for more familiar open horn notes really
>> does not work for many of the valved notes. I find that valved notes tend to
>> remind me of a French horn (a more distant quality), or to be tubby sounding
>> like some high register tones on a tuba, rather than the more immediate tone
>> and response that I get on the open notes on the bass trombone. I find,
>> however, that the converse is true, the embouchure that I must use to get
>> good tone quality (non French horny sounding) and immediate  tonal response
>> (no burble) in the valve register does work on the open horn.
>> 
>> Conclusion:
>> 
>> One should use the embouchure that works for valved notes because it also
>> works for open notes. That¹s it in a nutshell.
>> 
>> Thanks for your time and interest in this topic. I appreciate your
>> expertise.
>> 
>> Galen
>> 
>> 
>> On 4/1/09 7:35 PM, "Bob Koester" <bobkoester at msn.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Galen,
>>> 
>>> I've inserted some thoughts into your text.  Before you read them please let
>>> me caution you to not "over brain" this whole process.  (Every time I "over
>>> brain" I end up with problems).
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Regards, 
>>> 
>>> Bob 
>>> Bob Koester, President MSI Financial
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>>> 
>>>  
>>>>> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:23:46 -0700
>>>>> From: grzinn at astound.net
>>>>> To: Trombone-l at samford.edu
>>>>> Subject: [Trombone-l] Embouchure Dictations Of The Bass Trombone Valve
>>>> Register (not an immaculate conception)
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a an inline Shires Bass Trombone with independent Bb/Gb/F/D valves
>>>>> and a dual bore slide. I have discovered that I must use what I would call
>> a
>>>>> much more extreme embouchure set (extending my lips more forcefully inside
>>>>> the mouthpiece, thus producing the vibrations more on the interior surface
>>>>> of the lip tissues which requires the use of faster moving high volume
>>>>> air)
>>>>> particularly for any notes achieved through the use of the various valve
>>>>> combinations.
>>> 
>>>>> Forget what horn/mouthpiece combination you have, it doesn't matter as
>>>>> your
>>>> questions involve playing the bass trombone, not a particular combination.
>>>> To respond to your first technical observation, does you regular practice
>>>> include any no tongue/air only beginnings of notes...notice I DID NOT SAY
>>>> ATTACKING notes?  This is an important concept.  If your routine does not
>>>> include no tongue, I suggest and recommed that you try it.
>>> 
>>>>> Of late, I have worked daily at relearning alternate positions for all
>>>> notes
>>>>> that can be performed with less slide movement through the use of the
>>>>> valves. In most cases the use of the valves throws the horn into an
>>>>> immediate longer length of tubing and for most of the notes played in
>>>>> alternate positions a higher partial must be used. This, to my ear changes
>>>>> the tone quality to make it sound more like a French Horn being performed
>>>> on
>>>>> the higher partials where the notes are closer together.
>>>  
>>> The valve(s) make the horn longer.  So, you should listen for, to, and
>>> practice to obtain the most relaxed "open" sound you can on the valve notes
>>> you will use the most.  I like, for checking sound as well as intonation, to
>>> play slow half or whole notes starting on second line Bb on the open horn
>>> with
>>> a no tongue start for several starts.  Then, I repeat that exercise on the
>>> long third position with "F" valve Bb in the same fashion.  After that, I
>>> switch back and forth with the same no tongue start in ramdom cominations
>>> ie.
>>> open, valve, valve, open, open....you get the idea, mix and match.  Do that
>>> same exercise with all the open/valve combinations on the Bb/F side.  If you
>>> think what you are doing sounds like a French horn, stop doing what you're
>>> doing and go back to open tenor trombone exercises to get your ears
>>> straight.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This more extreme embouchure set works just as well on the ³open² or Bb
>>>> horn
>>>>> but I don¹t find the reverse to be true. If I slip back into older
>>>>> embouchure habits that I used to use for tenor trombones with F
>>>> attachments,
>>>>> and attempt to blow on through one of these alternate position notes using
>>>>> valves, I will ³burble² the attack of the note almost every time. So, I
>>>>> guess what I¹m trying to say is that good tone quality in the valve range
>>>> of
>>>>> my bass trombone seems to govern the embouchure set that I must use for
>>>>> the
>>>>> full compass of the instrument.
>>>  
>>> Let's not get hung up on things like as you call it "embouchure set".  It
>>> sounds to me as though you are working MUCH too hard to hit a target you may
>>> not be correctly identifying.  RELAX.  Go back to no tongue long tones with
>>> an
>>> easy start...that means let the breath flow, don't force it to make a sound.
>>> Go from there after you are really relaxed and ready to play whatever horn
>>> you
>>> want to work with...and I mean work WITH, not work ON.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The reverse is not true; at least it doesn¹t seem to work for me. Can any
>>>> of
>>>>> you out there refute/explain/agree with my conclusions? Or, might there be
>>>>> another variable in this experiment... my Doug Yeo Signature Bass Trombone
>>>>> Mouthpiece. Perhaps the mouthpiece is not matched to me and/or the horn?
>>>  
>>> Again, don't worry.  Doug's piece is a fine mouthpiece.  I own one and if
>>> all
>>> I did was play orchestral and other classical music I'd play it all the
>>> time...I really like it.  Mostly my work is commercial and loud and requires
>>> very sudden percussive attacks.  FOR ME, the Laskey 93D is a better choice
>>> at
>>> least right now.
>>> 
>>> estion for those of you who claim to
>>>>> double on alto, tenor, bass trombone, euphonium, and tuba. How do you
>>>>> accomplish all this without ³burbling² attacks on notes? Apparently you
>>>> have
>>>>> found a single embouchure setting that works for all of the circumstances
>>>> on
>>>>> all of these instruments?
>>>  
>>> Nope.  I approach each horn with the same no tongue simplicity to start but
>>> use a mouthpiece best suited for each horn.  (Didn't used to do that, but as
>>> I
>>> age I see the value in setting up a horn and a mouthpiece, rather than
>>> trying
>>> to do a one size fits all approach.)  Galen, I think you are worrying too
>>> much.  Burbling or whatever it's called is a result of fear of failure, not
>>> a
>>> combination of equipment issues.  Relax, play, and have fun.
>>>  
>>> Best and email me back if you want to take this discussion further.
>>>  
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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