[Trombone-l] Artistry

Fri Dec 26 22:09:34 CST 2008

At 10:26 PM 12/26/2008, Chris Tune wrote:
>I can't say I've seen Furtwangler, but I've heard he was also quite abstract
>in front of the orchestra.  One of those hard to explain phenomena.

I've seen films of him, but it was a long time ago. I remember one 
player saying that Berlin Philharmonic players had to spend a long 
time getting used to him, and that other orchestras had trouble 
following him. One described his beat as wandering around the podium, 
stopping here and there, before making a point of some kind or other.

Another conductor who supposedly had some oddities about him was 
Reiner. I can't really say for certain but I seem to recall someone 
saying his beat was so tiny as to be imperceptible and that his real 
conducting was done in rehearsal.

Whatever was going on with Kaplan and the VPO, it worked.

>Tune
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu]
>On Behalf Of Roger Hecht
>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:00 PM
>To: trombone-l at samford.edu
>Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Artistry
>
>I have to admit I'm with Rod on this. I have at least 10 recordings
>of M2, and while I think the Mahler Second is a great piece, I never
>found it a GREAT piece. I've always thought of it as Mahler's take on
>Requiems of Berlioz, Mozart, Brahms, Mozart, and Verdi, and I'd never
>put it in a class with any of those works. There is a sublimnity
>about those pieces that the Mahler never quite achieved, at least not for
>me.
>
>The Ninth is of course a very different work by a very different
>composer. Far more forward leaning, as was the unfinished Tenth. Many
>composers died too young, and Mahler was one of them, as those two
>works attest. He was taking orchestral music somewhere, and we never
>got to find out exactly where. Zemlinsky, Schoenberg, and a few
>others may have given us a hint. Then again, maybe not. This has
>always been one of music's many mysteries for me.
>
>As for the Kaplan thread that started all this, I can see arguments
>to both sides as far as orchestras being used in one way or the
>other. As for what happened in this particular performance, I wasn't
>there, know no one who was, and I don't know what happened. I'll
>leave it at that in this post.
>
>One thing I would add that I don't recall mentioned. Kaplan made two
>recordings of the Second, the first with the London Symphony, the
>second years later with the Vienna Philharmonic. I'll make some
>comments on the VPO one on the original "Gilbert Kaplan's guest
>appearance" thread. A hint may lie in my comment on Chuck's advice to
>try a recording of the Second other than Walter's. One I would
>recommend is Kaplan's with the VPO. (Along with the first Bernstein,
>Klemperer, Abbado, maybe Stokowski, the first Haitink, and a
>conductor many don't like in Mahler but whom I'm fond of, maybe for
>the wrong reasons: Kubelik. Maybe Mehta if you want the Vienna
>Philharmonic in an analog recording, but Kaplan is better.) There are
>others worth checking out, but it's been a while since I've heard
>some of them and some of the ones mentioned here, as well, so I'm
>relying on some distant memory with some of them, particularly the
>Bernstein, which I haven't heard in years (and I don't think has
>great sound, though better than his second one with the LSO. I never
>heard his third go-round.) I've probably forgotten a few, as well.
>
>
> >JcS,
> >
> >Walter and the NYPO were certainly a great combination.  But I think
> >you need to listen to M2 by a few more ensembles as well.  There are
> >so many different ways to interpret this work that a single
> >conductor/orchestra's reading really can't be the basis for an opinion.
> >
> >M9 is from a different period in the composer's life when he was
> >really straining at the bounds of Romanticism (not that M2 is all
> >that conformist itself).  Certainly one can compare and contrast M2
> >to M9--an early and a late symphony by the same composer over a span
> >of years.  This has probably been the subject of many academic papers.
> >
> >Personally, I think M2 is a great work.  I don't find one thing
> >"Hollywood" or "student-ish" about it at all.  I find it to be a
> >work of great inner tension (chaos?, schizophrenia?) and
> >contemplation that took several hearings before I began to
> >understand it.  I still don't "get it" and probably never will.
> >
> >Besides, Hollywood came after M2 by about 50 years, so if anything,
> >Hollywood might sound a little Mahlerish.
> >
> >--Chuck
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu
> >[mailto:trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu] On Behalf Of
> >thetubameister at roadrunner.com
> >Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:55 AM
> >To: Daniel Pliskin; Jeff Albert; Rod Ellard
> >Cc: bone bone
> >Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Artistry
> >
> >My answer is simple - I'd be happy to sub for Mr. Finlayson if Mr.
> >Kaplan comes back :-)
> >
> >J.c.S.
> >
> >
> >---- Rod Ellard <e11rod at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > A bit off topic, but is M2 really all that great a piece?  After
> > following the Finlayson/Kaplan thread in TTF for a couple of days,
> > I put on my recording of M2 by Walter conducting the NYPO (someone
> > will chime in with the date). There were some great parts but there
> > were some not-so-great parts.  Some parts sounded like bad
> > Hollywood, some sounded a little student-ish, similar to but maybe
> > not quite what Gustav able to do in, for example, M9 ( a piece I am
> > still coming to grips with after, oh, twenty years of owning
> > Solti/Chicago's M9 - Pankow plays great on that recording by the way).
> > >
> > > We can genuflect before artistic genius and demand the same from
> > others, but perfection is rarely attained by even the best and
> > criticizing anyone for falling short seems to be a mug's game at
> > best.  Mr. F's comments seems to be a little like complaining about
> > the moneylenders being allowed inside the temple and for that I
> > respect his remarks but where the line is to be drawn is a difficult
>question.
> > >
> > > R.
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -
> > >
> > > I didn't hear the Kaplan performance.  It may have been a pedestrian
> > > reading of a great piece.  I don't have a problem with calling BS when
> > > it is present.  We all have to find the balance between being true to
> > > our standards, and doing the things we have to do to be able to be
> > > working musicians at all.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.jeffalbert.com
> > > www.scratchmybrain.com
> > > www.openearsmusic.org
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>Roger Hecht
>
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Roger Hecht 