[Trombone-l] Artistry

Fri Dec 26 21:26:36 CST 2008

Also, a point worth noting in terms of conducting technique, at least DURING
the performance.  This particular conductor (Kaplan) is not the only
conductor that one would have to basically ignore much of the time while
playing the music.

I recall looking at a video of a very nice sounding Beethoven (I think it
was Symphony 3, "Eroica", but It could have been any one) with Von Karajan
as an old man conducting the Vienna Phil.  I'm afraid H V K's twitches and
spasms did not seem to have much correlation to conducting direction at
least as far as it has been established through typical formal practice.
The particular gestures sometimes seemed to be roughly in the tempo the
orchestra (I'd assert it was IMPOSSIBLE that the conductor had controlled
these tempos. . ) had established, however a great deal of the time the
various motions had the look of someone simply enjoying the music, and
randomly gesticulating to sort of "nod agreement".

The performance was lovely, however, it was obviously the work of the VPO
musicians and not something driven in real-time by Von Karajan.  Now, it is
truly possible, that Von Karajan's insights into the piece in rehearsal were
all the difference in making that a special performance.  So the issue here
is really very multifaceted. Sometimes conducting technique is so abstract
as to be of little use in getting performance cues, yet nonetheless a very
good performance is had.

I can't say I've seen Furtwangler, but I've heard he was also quite abstract
in front of the orchestra.  One of those hard to explain phenomena.

Tune

-----Original Message-----
From: trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu [mailto:trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu]
On Behalf Of Roger Hecht
Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 7:00 PM
To: trombone-l at samford.edu
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Artistry

I have to admit I'm with Rod on this. I have at least 10 recordings 
of M2, and while I think the Mahler Second is a great piece, I never 
found it a GREAT piece. I've always thought of it as Mahler's take on 
Requiems of Berlioz, Mozart, Brahms, Mozart, and Verdi, and I'd never 
put it in a class with any of those works. There is a sublimnity 
about those pieces that the Mahler never quite achieved, at least not for
me.

The Ninth is of course a very different work by a very different 
composer. Far more forward leaning, as was the unfinished Tenth. Many 
composers died too young, and Mahler was one of them, as those two 
works attest. He was taking orchestral music somewhere, and we never 
got to find out exactly where. Zemlinsky, Schoenberg, and a few 
others may have given us a hint. Then again, maybe not. This has 
always been one of music's many mysteries for me.

As for the Kaplan thread that started all this, I can see arguments 
to both sides as far as orchestras being used in one way or the 
other. As for what happened in this particular performance, I wasn't 
there, know no one who was, and I don't know what happened. I'll 
leave it at that in this post.

One thing I would add that I don't recall mentioned. Kaplan made two 
recordings of the Second, the first with the London Symphony, the 
second years later with the Vienna Philharmonic. I'll make some 
comments on the VPO one on the original "Gilbert Kaplan's guest 
appearance" thread. A hint may lie in my comment on Chuck's advice to 
try a recording of the Second other than Walter's. One I would 
recommend is Kaplan's with the VPO. (Along with the first Bernstein, 
Klemperer, Abbado, maybe Stokowski, the first Haitink, and a 
conductor many don't like in Mahler but whom I'm fond of, maybe for 
the wrong reasons: Kubelik. Maybe Mehta if you want the Vienna 
Philharmonic in an analog recording, but Kaplan is better.) There are 
others worth checking out, but it's been a while since I've heard 
some of them and some of the ones mentioned here, as well, so I'm 
relying on some distant memory with some of them, particularly the 
Bernstein, which I haven't heard in years (and I don't think has 
great sound, though better than his second one with the LSO. I never 
heard his third go-round.) I've probably forgotten a few, as well.

>JcS,
>
>Walter and the NYPO were certainly a great combination.  But I think 
>you need to listen to M2 by a few more ensembles as well.  There are 
>so many different ways to interpret this work that a single 
>conductor/orchestra's reading really can't be the basis for an opinion.
>
>M9 is from a different period in the composer's life when he was 
>really straining at the bounds of Romanticism (not that M2 is all 
>that conformist itself).  Certainly one can compare and contrast M2 
>to M9--an early and a late symphony by the same composer over a span 
>of years.  This has probably been the subject of many academic papers.
>
>Personally, I think M2 is a great work.  I don't find one thing 
>"Hollywood" or "student-ish" about it at all.  I find it to be a 
>work of great inner tension (chaos?, schizophrenia?) and 
>contemplation that took several hearings before I began to 
>understand it.  I still don't "get it" and probably never will.
>
>Besides, Hollywood came after M2 by about 50 years, so if anything, 
>Hollywood might sound a little Mahlerish.
>
>--Chuck
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu 
>[mailto:trombone-l-bounces at samford.edu] On Behalf Of 
>thetubameister at roadrunner.com
>Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 11:55 AM
>To: Daniel Pliskin; Jeff Albert; Rod Ellard
>Cc: bone bone
>Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Artistry
>
>My answer is simple - I'd be happy to sub for Mr. Finlayson if Mr. 
>Kaplan comes back :-)
>
>J.c.S.
>
>
>---- Rod Ellard <e11rod at yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > A bit off topic, but is M2 really all that great a piece?  After 
> following the Finlayson/Kaplan thread in TTF for a couple of days, 
> I put on my recording of M2 by Walter conducting the NYPO (someone 
> will chime in with the date). There were some great parts but there 
> were some not-so-great parts.  Some parts sounded like bad 
> Hollywood, some sounded a little student-ish, similar to but maybe 
> not quite what Gustav able to do in, for example, M9 ( a piece I am 
> still coming to grips with after, oh, twenty years of owning 
> Solti/Chicago's M9 - Pankow plays great on that recording by the way).
> >
> > We can genuflect before artistic genius and demand the same from 
> others, but perfection is rarely attained by even the best and 
> criticizing anyone for falling short seems to be a mug's game at 
> best.  Mr. F's comments seems to be a little like complaining about 
> the moneylenders being allowed inside the temple and for that I 
> respect his remarks but where the line is to be drawn is a difficult
question.
> >
> > R.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -
> >
> > I didn't hear the Kaplan performance.  It may have been a pedestrian
> > reading of a great piece.  I don't have a problem with calling BS when
> > it is present.  We all have to find the balance between being true to
> > our standards, and doing the things we have to do to be able to be
> > working musicians at all.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > --
> > www.jeffalbert.com
> > www.scratchmybrain.com
> > www.openearsmusic.org
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Roger Hecht  

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