[Trombone-l] Calling all musicologists... slightly off topic...

Tue Aug 12 15:31:25 CDT 2008

One other thing - I speak from experience - ALL fingerings for ophicleide are quirky :-D

J.c.S.

---- thetubameister at adelphia.net wrote: 
> That's easy - the weeker or less resonant tones of the C Ophicleide would be reinforced by stronger tones (ones which are closer to the bell) of the Bb, and the other way around.  Mostly useful in the lower ranges, not a big deal in the higher end... Explains the scoring and use of the second ophicleide very well in "Fantastique".
> 
> J.c.S.
> 
> 
> ---- Dennis Clason <dclason at nmsu.edu> wrote: 
> > I know, I know ...
> > 
> > Because of the intonation faults and fingering quirks in the 
> > instruments.  Kind of like the situation with clarinets in A and 
> > clarinets in Bb.
> > 
> > And no, I didn't check Berlioz...
> > 
> > Ray Horton wrote:
> > > That is great information, Howard.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Berlioz _Treatise on Instrumentation_, which includes sections on 
> > > both ophicleide and tuba. can be read or DLd at the IMSLP site at :
> > >
> > >
> > > http://imslp.org/
> > >
> > >
> > > Look for Berlioz under composers, or look under "books."
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a great book.  The version here is the one in English with the 
> > > additions by R. Strauss (denoted by the squiggles on the side), which 
> > > are also quite informative
> > >
> > >
> > > Short answer - Berlioz's primary tuba is in F. 
> > >
> > >
> > > Here is a quiz question -  the answer can be found in the ophicleide 
> > > section of the book: 
> > >
> > >
> > > Why did Berlioz say he often wrote for two ophicleides in two different 
> > > keys?
> > >
> > >
> > > Raymond Horton
> > >
> > >
> > > Howard Weiner wrote:
> > >   
> > >> At 11:49 11.08.2008 -0700, thetubameister at adelphia.net wrote:
> > >>   
> > >>     
> > >>> Okay, I'm suddenly unsure about something I've always been sure of :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> On wikipedia, I read that Berlioz had at some later point rescored 
> > >>> the Symphonie Fantastique for two tubas instead of ophicleides.  I 
> > >>> was aware that he changed an earlier vbersion with a serpent to two 
> > >>> ophicleides, and my understanding was that Berlioz had never used 
> > >>> tube without an ophicleide also present.  I was also pretty darn 
> > >>> sure that he had okayed the _use_ of a tuba for the second 
> > >>> ophicleide part, but not for both.
> > >>>
> > >>> Who's right?  And is the tuba being refered to one of the "french" 
> > >>> high c instruments or some saxhorn variant of the larger pitches...
> > >>>     
> > >>>       
> > >> Second question first: Unfortunately, I don't what kind of tuba is 
> > >> meant, although I can imagine it was some sort of Saxhorn.
> > >>
> > >> As to the main question:
> > >> Here an excerpt from the Introduction to "Hector Berlioz New Edition 
> > >> of the Complete Works" vol. 16, Symphonie fantastique,  ed. Nicholas 
> > >> Temperley (1972):
> > >>
> > >> "Instrumentation
> > >> ...
> > >> Ophicleides -- In the autograph there is only one ophicleide part. 
> > >> ... In [movement] V it is joined at the Dies irae by a serpent in Bb. 
> > >> In ADir [autograph directions for performance: 'A single sheet of 
> > >> 30-stave music paper, with writing by Berlioz on one side.'] Berlioz 
> > >> directed that 'if the church serpent plays out of tune, as most of 
> > >> them do, an ophicleide will be more suitable'. P [printed full score 
> > >> (Paris, 1845)], PO [printed orchestral parts (Paris, 1845)] and APO 
> > >> [autograph additions and corrections in PO] allot the second part to 
> > >> an ophicleide in Bb, and give it music to play in [movement] IV as 
> > >> well as V. The 1st ophicleide is in C in all sources...
> > >>          In AP2 [autograph corrections to printed score of Jan. 
> > >> 1845], P3 [printed score, 1846] the words 'or tuba' were added to the 
> > >> 2nd ophicleide stave, ... In a letter to Hogarth dated 4 May 1853 in 
> > >> which he lists 'auxiliary instruments' required for the symphony, 
> > >> only one ophicleide is mentioned, and no tuba."
> > >>
> > >> So, J.c., be unsure no more  ;-)
> > >>
> > >> Howard
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Howard Weiner
> > >> h.weiner at online.de
> > >> http://howard-weiner.de/
> > >>
> > >> Tosca jumped to a conclusion.  
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Trombone-l mailing list
> > >> Trombone-l at samford.edu
> > >> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>   
> > >>     
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Trombone-l mailing list
> > > Trombone-l at samford.edu
> > > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> > >
> > >   
> > 
> > -- 
> > --
> > Dennis L. Clason, Ph.D.
> > University Statistics Center
> > New Mexico State University
> > Las Cruces, New Mexico
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Trombone-l mailing list
> > Trombone-l at samford.edu
> > http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-l at samford.edu
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l