[Trombone-l] When to use what instrumentation

[Ray Horton]

Thanks to Howard for specifying some of his complaints with Ken's work. 
I had asked him what his complaints were, earlier, when he cast 
aspersions on same.


There may be flaws in Ken's work, but it, coupled with all of Howard's 
tremendous work in these areas, still adds greatly to our knowledge.


Raymond Horton
Louisville Orchestra


Howard Weiner wrote:

> At 06:41 08.11.2007 -0500, DF Cramer wrote:
>   
>> Follow this link
>>
>> http://www.trombone-society.org.uk/resources/articles/shifrin/shifrin01.php
>>
>> to Ken Shifrin's doctoral research on the alto 
>> trombone in the orchestra from 1800 to 
>> 2000.  Just because a part is written in alto clef does not mean alto trombone.
>>
>> The paper is a wonderful and insightful read 
>> about the trombone and the orchestra.
>>     
>
> I'm afraid I can't share your enthusiasm for 
> Shifrin's dissertation. It contains quite a few 
> mistakes (it was obviously not very carefully 
> vetted) and has a misconception as its point of 
> departure (i.e., that the alto trombone [and with 
> it the section of alto, tenor and bass trombones] 
> was ubiquitous in the eighteenth and early 
> nineteenth centuries), so I'd be skeptical of those insights.
>
> A few examples:
> At the end of chapter 4 Shifrin writes "Archival 
> material strongly suggests that in the first 
> performances of [Brahms'] Symphony No. 1 and 
> Symphony No. 2, the trombonists [in Vienna] used 
> valved instruments." -- While the part about 
> valved instruments is undoubtedly true, the 
> source he gives in note 72 is irrelevant and 
> incorrect -- "Haus-Hof-Stadt-Archiv, Wien: 
> Oper/K80/1884/Nr. 557." -- the correct name of 
> the archive is "Haus-, Hof- und Staats Archiv" 
> and the cited document has nothing at all to do 
> with Brahms or the first performances of his 
> symphonies, and only very marginally with the 
> change from valve to slide trombones in 1883.
>
> In chapter 5, table 5.1, Josef Hilmer is listed 
> as the trombone professor at the Prague 
> Conservatory from 1903 to 1934. The source of the 
> information about Hilmer is revealed in note 23 
> to be "Ušák, ... citing Hoffmeister's obituary 
> speech for Hilmer in 1930" -- with no comment 
> offered concerning the obvious chronological... ah... problem.
>
> In chapter 1, note 14, Shifrin wrote "Mozart 
> called for an e" colla voce in the Gloria of the 
> C Minor Mass, as well as in bar 182 of no. 6 in 
> the theatre work Thomas, König in Ägypten, as did 
> Bach in his Cantata no. 121; Gluck wrote an f" 
> for the alto trombonist in Alceste. However, in 
> all these cases, the trombone is doubling the 
> voice part." -- The correct name of the theatre 
> work is "Thamos" not "Thomas," and the f" in the 
> first trombone part of Alceste does not appear in 
> a passage where the trombone is doubling a voice part.
>
> I could go on for pages, but I think you get the idea.
>
> Howard
>
>
> --
> Howard Weiner
> h.weiner at online.de
> http://howard-weiner.de/
>
> Tosca jumped to a conclusion.  
>
>
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