[Trombone-l] trombones and choral music

[thetubameister@adelphia.net]

Okay, I follow.  If one removes the assertion that the Bb bass was a wider bore, then the other "tenors" from that period differed in mouthpiece only, so I've technically seen several.  But I've heard reference to a larger bore instrument.  Am I messed up?

J.c.

---- Howard Weiner <h.weiner at online.de> wrote: 
> At 05:41 02.05.2007 -0700, thetubameister at adelphia.net wrote:
> 
> >There's one question I have.  I can certainly buy that this part is 
> >perfectly playable without a valve, I have been studying the 
> >instruments themselves for years, have created for myself an imense 
> >digital archive, and I have never seen an extant period Bb Bass 
> >trombone.  The only thing close was an American 19th century 
> >Baritone Trombone in Bb.
> >
> >Where might I get the specs and perhaps a photo of something like this?
> 
> It depends what period you're talking about.
> 
> As I see it, the trombones made in the eighteenth century seem to 
> fall into two categories:
> 
> The "old-fashioned" instruments (alto, tenor, quart, and sometimes 
> soprano) still made and used primarily for Protestant church music 
> (Bach cantatas) and Stadtpfeiffer and other ensembles (e.g., the 
> Moravian trombone choirs). The some 23 surviving trombones of the 
> Schmied family of Pfaffendorf come to mind here, an number of which 
> found their way during the eighteenth century to Moravian communities 
> in the USA.
> 
> Then there are the trombones by Viennese makers, which would most 
> likely have been the instruments used in Vienna. A handful of 
> trombones from ca. 1738-40 (all tenors) by the Leichamschneider 
> brothers have survived, for the most part in Viennese collections; at 
> the time these were made, trombones were used in Vienna almost 
> exclusively in the alto and tenor ranges, with the bass part being 
> covered by a bassoon. -- So you're not going to find a B-flat bass 
> trombone here.
> 
> In the early nineteenth century, we finally have a couple written sources:
> 
> In his trombone method of ca. 1811, Josef Froehlich states "In more 
> recent times, in some places the three types of trombone have been 
> built in the same size... Here, nothing is different other than the 
> mouthpiece." And: "As with every wind instrument, the construction of 
> the mouthpiece is of greatest importance... the three kinds of 
> trombone must have different mouthpieces." And: "The bass trombone 
> illustrated here is in B-flat and thus resembles a trumpet tuned in B-flat."
> 
> In 1816, Gottfried Weber wrote: "In principle, this bass trombone is 
> merely a B-flat trumpet.... The tenor trombone is exactly the same 
> instrument as the above-described bass trombone... The alto trombone, 
> too, can be exactly the same instrument (namely, for all practical 
> purposes, a B-flat trumpet), only that, by means of an even smaller 
> mouthpiece, still higher partials can be used."
> 
> And in 1827, Andreas Nemetz wrote in his trombone method: "The 
> illustrated bass, tenor, and alto trombone is pitched in B-flat... 
> the mouthpiece must be different for each of the three types of trombone."
> 
> So here, too, in the first quarter of the nineteenth century, you're 
> probably not going to find an identifiable B-flat bass trombone, 
> since it was actually the mouthpiece that made the difference, not 
> the instrument.
> 
> Starting with the second quarter of the nineteenth century, things 
> really started happening in brass instrument making and design, and I 
> don't pretend to know all that much about this period. I do know that 
> in the Vienna court opera orchestra, valve trombones supplanted the 
> slide trombones in ca. 1836 (and probably a bit earlier in Italy).
> 
> In 1862 the Vienna court opera orchestra adopted French opera pitch 
> as its standard tuning pitch. Accordingly, new wind instruments had 
> to be purchased: these included four B-flat trombones (one with three 
> valves and three with four valves) and two three-valve bass trombones in F.
> 
> Also something to consider is that all the solo pieces written for 
> Carl Traugott Queisser (including the David Concertino) were 
> designated for "bass trombone" and predate Sattler's addition of an F 
> attachment to the trombone in 1839.
> 
> So this is where you're going to have to look for the B-flat bass 
> trombone, though here, too, the difference may well have been the 
> mouthpiece, not the instrument itself.
> 
> Howard
> 
> 
> --
> Howard Weiner
> h.weiner at online.de
> http://howard-weiner.de/
> 
> Tosca jumped to a conclusion.  
>