[Trombone-l] UrineTown

[Steve Carr]

just to throw an exception out . . .

I covered a rehearsal of the Scarlet Pimpernel for a fellow bass trombone
player this summer.  The brass was expanded from the Broadway orchestration.
Broadway was: 1 trumpet (w/ picc), 2 horns, bass trombone/euphonium.  It had
grown to: 2 trumpets (one w/ picc), 2 horns, tenor trombone/euphonium, bass
trombone.  There was a lot of unison and octave doubling in the trombone
parts.  I don't know what other changes were made to the instrumentation -
maybe they took out the violas to make room for more brass players.

Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: <mpurdy at jwpepper.com>
To: <jscot at ucalgary.ca>
Cc: "List Trombone" <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>;
<trombone-l-bounces at server5.samford.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] UrineTown


> There is a production of Phantom coming into town (Philly).  I was
> speculating on which of the usual suspects would get the call for the bass
> trombone book.  Guess what?  The book has been cut - no trombone bass or
> otherwise.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> jscot at ucalgary.ca
> Sent by: trombone-l-bounces at maillists.samford.edu
> 09/20/2006 05:52 PM
>
> To
> "ALEX ILES" <alexiles at earthlink.net>
> cc
> List Trombone <trombone-l at server5.samford.edu>
> Subject
> Re: [Trombone-l] UrineTown
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Alex -
>
> As usual, I can't argue with anything you've said here.
>
> To my thinking, we have 2 problems presented here:
>
> 1. A lot of so-called arrangers/orchestrators don't know what they're
> doing, and don't have a clear idea of the difference between tenor and
> bass trombones. Many of them don't even know that an F attachment is
> needed for the notes between low E and pedal B flat, and they certainly
> don't realize that a second valve is needed for the B natural (I know, you
> can pull the F slide, etc., but for all practical purposes).
>
> 2. There are a lot of people at the production end who try to save a few
> bucks at every turn, regardless of how it affects the final product.
> Musicians are often the first place they look for some savings (they never
> seem to feel the need to cut the catering budget instead).
>
> In my opinion, although this is again a "grey area", this show suffers a
> bit more from the first problem than the second. The orchestrations are
> not bad, but the differentiation of instruments isn't there, and there
> wouldn't be time to make the switch every time if a trombonist was to go
> through and mark what was appropriate. I don't think that anyone was
> trying to "rip off" trombonists everywhere since they have 4 instruments
> in the reed book, with no move to simplify and combine instruments there
> (someone could try to do away with either the Soprano Sax or the Clarinet,
> if cost cutting was the goal).
>
> Funny that in one other post, a lister said that he found the part to be
> more of a Bass part - I see it more as a Tenor Trombone part. I guess that
> shows that this isn't an easy one to "peg".
>
> At the same time, I am sorry to see the trend towards reducing
> orchestrations at every turn for shows. When a show starts in London, they
> usually reduce the number of strings when it hits Broadway. Then they
> start adding synthesizers and cutting wind players as it starts traveling
> through North America. By the time it hits Asia, they are sometimes using
> a tape instead of a live band. It's a sad phenomenon since the first
> couple of rows of seats usually pay for all of the band costs, but as I
> said, the music is where they look first to cut costs and maximize their
> profits.
>
> Jim Scott
>
>
>
>  Thanks for your thoughtful comments on this discussion, Jim. You have
> > made the point clearly as a professional dealing with this stuff all
> > the time. There is a LOT of grey area in our profession. In fact, I
> > find lot of the most exciting musical situations are lurking there in
> > the grey.
> >
> > I too am glad to see there are trombones AT ALL on ANY Broadway
> > shows--especially the newer ones!! And this show [from everyone I have
> > talked to who has played it] is a very fun show to play.
> >
> > My comments have less to do with UrineTown than what I was starting to
> > read between the lines in the comments made by some list-erines [or
> > should I say list-Urines??] about the show and doubling in general.
> >
> > Sure, practicality [and market forces] must be factored in to decided
> > what horn/s we bring to a gig, but why are we supposed to always
> > automatically accept a lower standard right out of the shoot?
> >
> > The money has nothing to do with why I made my comments. Some have
> > expressed that my perspective is greedy. Well, to me, if a certain
> > standard protects musicians, the music and their salaries, it is worth
> > talking about. Unless you want to do someone a favor, giving something
> > away for nothing is just plain dumb. To me, one can easily argue that
> > it is a form of greed [or perhaps ignorance] that orchestrators write
> > bass bone notes for a lone tenor bone in the first place. Why should WE
> > accept a lower musical standard based on their greed or ignorance?
> >
> > It is becoming a more and more difficult for working trombonists these
> > days. Re-orchestrations, the Virtual Orchestra and the general dumbing
> > down of audiences wind up costing us ALL.
> >
> > My interest is the MUSICAL distinction between the tenor trombone and
> > bass trombone--for EVERYONE'S SAKE. Granted, there are trigger notes in
> > Mahler Symphony inner bone parts. That to me is a different issue. The
> > "trombone with F attachment" has been the standard instrument in the
> > symphony orchestra for so long and no one is willing to argue about the
> > musical justification in that case. The whole time that has remained
> > the standard, it has been a standard that the bass trombone and the
> > tenor trombone are separate instruments in the commercial/freelance
> > world.
> >
> > Charlie Vernon securely plays double high Bb's on the bass trombone and
> > Joe Alessi hauls through the trigger register and pedal notes like a
> > great bass bone player. That is THEIR choice to do so most of the time.
> > They usually do this in solo situations where they have more creative
> > control and perhaps they are collaborating with a composer who writes
> > those notes for them. Again, different situation. Most of the time,
> > they are making those calls!
> >
> > Urinetown aside for a moment...
> >
> > My biggest concern comes when from these re-orchestrations of old shows
> > become the norm. I am not so sure many symphony orchestras would be
> > thrilled the next time they do Mahler 3 or The Planets if there
> > suddenly appeared only one trombone part on the stand to be covered by
> > ONE player on ONE instrument. This is the equivalent of what happens
> > when a show [originally scored for the three bones and tuba] comes to
> > town with ONE trombone part. They're already saving money with a
> > smaller orchestra!! In theory [and market forces aside] it is an INSULT
> > not to allow that one player to charge a double for covering a bunch of
> > extra parts! Either do the show the way it was intended [similar to the
> > way symphony orchestras do] or meet the players part way and consider
> > paying the one player they hired for the trouble.
> >
> > Once again, someone is always willing to work for less and not raise
> > the issue. That is their choice, but don't be surprised if that choice
> > comes back to haunt you later.
> >
> > LX
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
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