[Trombone-l] alto&bass trombones in 18th-cent. orchestras WAS: Scriptural reference

[Raymond Horton]

Thank you for the additional information, Howard.  This is quite 
illuminating and interesting.


I used a bit lighter equipment than usual the last time I played _The 
Creation_ just for the sound and agility.  I realize that this is not 
the point of your research for performances with modern instruments, but 
I think I may lighten a bit more the next time, after reading all that 
you have had to say on the subject.  (I won't give up my F attachment, 
though!)  


Now, just tell me what kind of a section the hack (1980 - I forget the 
name) who reorchestrated Adolphe Adam's _Giselle_ ballet that we played 
all of last week was writing for.  The trombone parts are laughable, 
with the bass line often tripled and almost always doubled; bass 
trombone below the staff all night; 2nd trombone with valve notes, in 
unison with the BT, down to low B, etc.  Fun to play, but sounds awful, 
especially considering this is French music of 1840!  It ought to keep 
the Howards of the future scratching their heads just a bit!


Ray


Howard Weiner wrote:

> At 21:21 04.05.06 -0400, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> Very sorry, Howard!
>> I had just read the issue last week, had made a mental note to 
>> commend you on this list on YOUR article, and then when this subject 
>> came up, without the issue beside me, I jumbled the two articles 
>> together in my already-jumbled mind.   But, as I said - a 
>> particularly fine issue, including BOTH your articles.
>
>
> Thanks, Ray! I'm glad you read and enjoyed both my articles.
>
>> Your main article is excellent on an important issue for all 
>> performing trombonists -just when did those composers expect to hear 
>> a "real" "alto" or a "real" "bass" trombone?
>
>
> My article "When is an Alto Trombone an Alto Trombone? When is a Bass 
> Trombone a Bass Trombone? -- The Makeup of the Trombone Section in 
> eighteenth- and early Nineteenth-Century Orchestras" is primarily 
> aimed at trombonists who play in historically informed performance 
> (HIP) ensembles, where the trombone section is usually made up of an 
> alto in E-flat, a tenor in B-flat, and a bass in E-flat or F. But, of 
> course, it also could also have implications for those of us who play 
> in modern orchestras. In any case, what I tried to show was that this 
> "usual" HIP trombone section was by no means universal and that the 
> orchestral trombone section of the 18th and early 19th centuries had 
> different formations depending on time and place. And in particular in 
> Vienna and Paris, where B-flat (tenor) trombones were employed on all 
> three parts.
>
>
>> On that subject, I think you are _likely_ right about the Haydn 
>> _Creation_ BT part being written for a Bb instrument with falset 
>> notes, but I am not 100% sold yet.
>> Are there any other possibilities?  Such as:
>>
>> 1) Haydn imports player and instrument with an Eb bass (were there 
>> any in Germany at that point?) or an F bass (the Bb is a mistake) (I 
>> assume trombonists were rare in England at that time anyway, were 
>> they not? )
>
>
> It is unlikely that Haydn imported a player with an E-flat bass 
> trombone, simply because Haydn was not normally the concert organizer. 
> The "Creation" was performed over 40 times between the premiere in 
> February 1798 and early 1810. Many of these performances were put on 
> by musicians' benevolent societies as benefit concerts for musicians' 
> widows and orphans, with the participants (usually society members and 
> local amateurs) performing at most for a minimal fee. Bringing in 
> somebody from Germany or elsewhere would have been prohibitively 
> expensive; and don't forget that this was a time in which trombonists 
> were usually employed as town musicians, and would not easily have 
> been able to take a leave of absence and jump on a stage coach to go 
> to a gig in Vienna.
>
>
>> 2) Haydn wanted a bass trombone and just wrote for what he was used 
>> to in Germany - whatever that was?
>
>
> As a youth, Haydn was a choirboy at St. Stephan's Cathedral in Vienna. 
> Most of his creative life was spent in the service of the Esterhazy 
> family at Eisenstadt, (which is not far from Vienna) and Esterhaza (a 
> bit further east, in Hungary), with occasional sojourns in Vienna. The 
> Esterhazy orchestra was on the small side, and did not include 
> trombones. In other words, Haydn was familiar almost exclusively with 
> the Viennese trombone tradition, which knew neither the small alto in 
> E-flat nor the large "quart" trombone in E-flat.
>
>
>> I wonder if there any possibility of real evidence being found or 
>> surmised somehow.
>
>
> Well, my evidence is certainly not complete, but it is real. Don't 
> forget that almost any historical study will have holes in it that 
> have to be filled by means of interpolation and surmise. Short of 
> traveling back in time with a time machine, it's the only way we have 
> of arriving at a half-way complete picture. Nevertheless, in 30+ years 
> (16 of which were spent with an eye open for material especially 
> concerning this particular subject) of collecting information on the 
> early history of the trombone, I haven't been able to find anything 
> that would substantially alter my findings.
>
>
>> But your contribution to the study has been immensely valuable, and 
>> delightfully intriguing..
>
>
> Thanks again!
> Howard
>
>
>