[Trombone-l] Scriptural reference for the sackbut

[Raymond Horton]

Very sorry, Howard! 

I had just read the issue last week, had made a mental note to commend 
you on this list on YOUR article, and then when this subject came up, 
without the issue beside me, I jumbled the two articles together in my 
already-jumbled mind.   But, as I said - a particularly fine issue, 
including BOTH your articles.

Your main article is excellent on an important issue for all performing 
trombonists -just when did those composers expect to hear a "real" 
"alto" or a "real" "bass" trombone?

On that subject, I think you are _likely_ right about the Haydn 
_Creation_ BT part being written for a Bb instrument with falset notes, 
but I am not 100% sold yet. 

Are there any other possibilities?  Such as:

1) Haydn imports player and instrument with an Eb bass (were there any 
in Germany at that point?) or an F bass (the Bb is a mistake) (I assume 
trombonists were rare in England at that time anyway, were they not? )

2) Haydn wanted a bass trombone and just wrote for what he was used to 
in Germany - whatever that was?

I wonder if there any possibility of real evidence being found or 
surmised somehow. 

But your contribution to the study has been immensely valuable, and 
delightfully intriguing..

Ray

Howard Weiner wrote:

> At 01:30 04.05.06 -0400, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> There were NO literal "sackbuts" (from the Spanish sacabuche, 
>> "pull-tube") in biblical times, period.  Our own resident scholar 
>> Howard Weiner has an EXCELLENT article in the latest issue (Volume 
>> 17, I believe?) of /Historic Brass Society Journal /which helps date 
>> the earliest sackbut, depicted in art, at least, at between 1450 and 
>> 1490 (I am greatly summarizing - read the whole issue - it is really 
>> fine).
>
>
> Thanks, but my article in that issue of the HBSJ is about the trombone 
> in orchestras of the 18th and early 19th centuries. The article that 
> you're referring to is by Herb Myers and entitled "Evidence of the 
> emerging trombone in the late fifteenth century."
>
> Howard
>
>
> -- 
> Howard Weiner
> weiner at privat.toplink.de
> http://www.harpa.com/howard-weiner/
>
> Tosca jumped to a conclusion.