[Trombone-l] Scriptural reference for the sackbut

[Chris Tune]

My understanding is the trombone was invented sometime roughly during the 
Renaissance . . .around the mid 1500's. At least I think the dating has been 
done looking at the earliest examples of Sackbuts.

The Romans had a variety of sizes and shapes of Trombas (trumpets).  So a 
large one would potentially have been a Trombone (assuming the same suffixes 
were used in Latin. . .I'm not sure that is so).  I would imagine that 
wealthier folk within the Judeans and other civilized groups around the 
Mediterranean and in Asia, would have adopted then "modern" horns for use in 
any of the purposes of a trumpet.  Certainly, the trumpet was used to make 
communications calls on the battle field.  The Macedonians certainly used 
this, and undoubtedly the Romans. Systems of calls existed for actions (like 
advance, retreat, etc) and then identity of battlefield units.  That way you 
could signal the advance of a particular unit.  I saw this in a documentary 
on Alexander the Great.  The armies were so vast that only a trumpet or 
large trumpet could be heard across the battlefield.

Anyway, the word Trombone simply means a large trumpet.  In biblical times 
the slide didn't exist so the distinctions we have now would also not exist. 
They all would be part of the trumpet group (really what we think of now as 
Bugle) So by  strict Italian language standards it wouldn't be unfair to 
call a Bass Trumpet a Trombone.

But in modern English the Trombone has a certain meaning.  Our familiar 
"evolved from Sackbut" horn of choice.  Of course you are right, too about 
the KJV.  The exact verbiage is not what you have to rely upon.  It is the 
"spirit" within the verbiage that is of paramount importance.  Obviously 
some of the verbiage is strickly contemporary terms from King James's time. 
This would have allowed the vast majority of people to get an understanding 
of the bible stories.  They didn't have such nice images and documentary 
works to explain to them what, for example, a Roman legion, might have 
looked like (even though their distant forbears would have actually SEEN 
one. . while Julius conquered the Britons). Everything had to be explained 
with words, while sticking to the spirit of the work

Chris

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dinwiddie" <billdin at comcast.net>
To: "List Trombone" <TROMBONE-L at server5.samford.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 2:00 PM
Subject: [Trombone-l] Scriptural reference for the sackbut


> OK, I know this list is not a religious resource, but, wasn't the majority
> of the bible rewritten in English as the King James Version? Many of these
> instrumental references are very likely translated from Latin or Greek or
> some other language, and so we see references to cornets and sackbuts, and
> dulcimers, etc., which were actually current at the time of the 
> translation,
> perhaps in the 1400's. I doubt the sackbut existed in 535 BC, but the
> shofar, or ram's horn, probably existed a lot earlier. Some of our Jewish
> members may have in fact played a shofar, as they are still used in
> religious cermonies...I hear they are pretty tough to get a good sound on.
>
> I am certainly no biblical expert, but this makes sense to me,
>
> Bill Dinwiddie
> billdin at comcast.net
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************************************
>
>
> The Scriptural reference for the sackbut is not Jeremiah, but Daniel. 
> Daniel
> is estimated to be written in about 535 BC.
>
>
>
> Dan 3:5 <http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan003.html#5>  [That] at
> what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery,
> dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden 
> image
> that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up:
>
>  _____
>
> Dan 3:7 <http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Dan/Dan003.html#7>  Therefore 
> at
> that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp,
> sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, 
> and
> the languages, fell down [and] worshipped the golden image that
> Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Trombone-l mailing list
> Trombone-l at maillists.samford.edu
> http://maillists.samford.edu/mailman/listinfo/trombone-l
>