[Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments

Mon Jun 19 01:21:51 CDT 2006

It is indeed an interesting approach.

The brain has different areas hardwired to recognized pitch and timbre, we
don't have to learn these.

Part of the process of producing tone is to develop a mental concept, then
use the brain's timbre recognizing function to compare your actual tone to
your desired tone, then you try to reduce the difference.  You usually don't
need to know how in detail, somehow you can do it.  Or learn to do it.  

Now sam is suggesting an intermediate step that uses the brain's pitch
center instead of the timbre center.   Rather than adjusting the overall
tone, we try to isolate components of it and adjust them individually.  And
then I guess eventually you go back to listening to timbre.  

It very well could be that some people have a timbre ability so strong they
simply can't do this, can't learn to hear overtones.  And it could also be
that some people have a weak enough timbre sense that listening to the
overtones will be much more successful than trying to listen to the tone.

Benade (the famous author of Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics) mentions
listening to overtones as a test for how well your mouthpiece matches your
horn.  Might be an equipment factor in here too.    

-----Original Message-----
From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin at mindspring.com] 
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 14:11
To: TROMBONE-L at server5.SAMFORD.EDU
Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments

>---snip---

Tim writes:

>At any rate, we don't have to learn to recognize "pitch."  Given a set 
>of frequencies that meet certain parameters, the brain will assemble it 
>into one tone with a characteristic the brain calls pitch, and another 
>called timbre. .  With practice, at least some of us may learn to hear 
>some of the discrete frequencies present, which is what sam was 
>recommending.  It was not clear to me if he was recommending we change 
>the discrete frequencies we produce.

Yes.

That is indeed what I was recommending.

First...learn to hear what IS happening.

Understand that it changes from day to day, from note to note, from range to
range, horn to horn, m'pce to m'pce, volume to volume, timbral choice to
timbral choice, etc.

Then...to some degree, at least...experiment.

When I play long tones I very often approach them this way.

First I play the note and consciously try to isolate different overtones.

Then I play it and completely surrender to what is happening. No thought or
effort at all. Just play.

Then I play it and try to hear EVERYTHING. Everything ELSE. What is
happening in the room, on the street outside, etc.

Then and ONLY then do I play it with the intention of making a "good" sound.

This process produces...interesting results.

Short AND long term.

Bet on it.

Try it.

You be bettah off.

>
>Sometimes the timbre gives us a secondary clue to the frequency mix.
>Sinusoidal tones are usually recognizable.  We talked about the 
>hairclipper buzz recently.  That timbre indicates the waveform is a 
>square wave.  We know intellectually a square wave is made up of a 
>fundamental plus odd harmonics, with the 3X frequency at 1/3 amplitude, the
5X at 1/5th, etc.
>Can you hear those upper harmonics?  Can you learn to?  sam says yes 
>and that there is an advantage to doing so.  I didn't disagree, just 
>made the point that recognizing the pitch and the timbre are not 
>learned, they are inborn.

Learned or unlearned...immaterial to me.

I see student after student who CANNOT hear overtones that are quite plainly
there to me.

And I demonstrate to them that they ARE there.

I sing them first. Once they believe...then I teach them to hear them on the
horn.

Suddenly essentially two dimensional notes reveal themselves as three
dimensional entities.

Whether they are "learning" a new skill or unlearning a socially imposed
construct, they are changing. And it is a good change.

Bet on it. All the rest is theory.

Either you do it or you don't...THAT is fact.

S.

>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>From: jeffalbert.smb at gmail.com [mailto:jeffalbert.smb at gmail.com] On 
>Behalf Of Jeff Albert
>Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 13:22
>To: Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW
>Cc: Chris Tune; TROMBONE-L at server5.samford.edu
>Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments
>
>
>
>
>On 6/6/06, Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW 
><timothy.a.richardson at us.army.mil 
><mailto:timothy.a.richardson at us.army.mil>
>>  wrote:
>
>  There is no learning
>involved, it is hardwired.  Of course musicians become more 
>sophisticated, but everybody does these things to some extent.
>
>
>Isn't that contradictory?  One sentence says there is no learning 
>involved, then the next sentence says that some people do it 
>differently after they work on it.  Isn't that learning?
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
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