[Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments

[Chris Tune]

Yes.  But it APPEARS to the user (heh!) that you are retraining some 
"learned" feature.  In reality it is just like you say.  We have hard-wired 
abilities in a variety of areas and there are stronger and less strong 
abilities built in to hear different features, like rhythm, melody (even the 
facility of picking it out from a chorale-harmony), timbre (or harmonic 
content).

We are set up to hear sounds as "woody" e.g woodwind sounds, "brassy" our 
sound. . ."sine-wave like" certain parts of synth and woodwind sound is like 
this.

A lot of what we do as musicians has to do with higher-order (at first. 
.until habit sets in ) sections like the pre-frontal cortex, being used to 
override the basic way of hearing and discriminate, or do what Sam is 
mentioning.  Yes, you train yourself to do this, but frankly it is not a 
huge part of HOW A TROMBONE WORKS.

I'd suggest anybody interested in this thread do to this website and you 
will see the subject we are talking about:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/brassacoustics.html#bells

This shows the "effects of the bell".  What I'm saying here is that such 
things as the DIFFERENCE between a straight section of tubing actuated by a 
"lip reed" and the related harmonic series here (not our familiar octave, 
octave, fifth, fourth, third, etc.) and the new series you get with a 
foreshortened effect when you put a brass BELL on there.   THIS is the kind 
of thing I'm thinking of when I want to find out more about fundamental 
questions of how a trombone works.

I'm particularly interested in how different bell flares might influence 
sound.

My Conn and my Bach are both right around the same size horn, but they are 
significantly affected by bell flare and bell design.  The Bach 16 bell is a 
one piece with the flare occuring much, much later and more suddenly nearer 
the rim.

The Conn 6H is more of a parabola in the classic sense, with gradual flaring 
starting very far up the neck and then continously increasing and increasing 
the rate of increase (again gradually), until the final flare out.  The end 
section near the bell bead (which is unsoldered-another influencer) is now 
very much closer to a right angle from the original direction of the sheet 
metal.

I tend to think this profoundly influences the harmonic content of the tone 
of the trombone sound.  I believe that the Bach plays with much greater 
emphasis upon 2nd and 3rd partials whereas the Conn puts out lots of 3rd, 
4th, 5th and on. . .

Now perception is another matter.  I perceive this as "Bright" and I like 
it.  Particularly so, since I record a lot and I want rich info to work 
with.

So now were talkin' "Sound-Acoustics of Brass Instruments".

Chris Tune


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW" 
<timothy.a.richardson at us.army.mil>
To: "Chris Tune" <crtune at adelphia.net>; <TROMBONE-L at server5.SAMFORD.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments


> Yes, and a related field is physiological psychology, which studies among
> other things the way the brain processes sensory data.  This area made 
> great
> advances in the 90's.  Because I left college in the 70's I know little of
> them.  <g>
>
> As it turns out, the idea that the brain learns to hear a set of harmonics
> as a tone and has to "unlearn" it is bogus.  The brain has separate areas
> for processing pitch, rhythm, timbre, and melody.  There is no learning
> involved, it is hardwired.  Of course musicians become more sophisticated,
> but everybody does these things to some extent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Tune [mailto:crtune at adelphia.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 16:43
> To: Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW;
> TROMBONE-L at server5.SAMFORD.EDU
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments
>
> That is Psycho-Acoustics.  A related item for sure.  I think it is very 
> good
> to attempt to hear harmonics and so on.  And I know that the actual size 
> of
> the horn, the shape of the horn's various parts (e.g. the bell, the
> materials. . .shape of the bows) can affect the harmonic content.   I'm
> pretty sure there is a very different structure to my .509 bore Bach 16 
> and
> my .500 bore Conn 6H.  I'll have to record some simple material and look
> carefully at the spectra on a recording.
>
> Chris
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richardson, Timothy Mr. DAC USAG Franconia DPW"
> <timothy.a.richardson at us.army.mil>
> To: <TROMBONE-L at server5.SAMFORD.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 5:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] Acoustics of brass instruments
>
>
>> I'm not sure this is anti-technology.  This is experiment, measurement 
>> and
>> data collection.  The data is qualitative (we hear the 5th but don't
>> assign
>> a number to how much) but that doesn't change the process.  The ears ARE
>> laboratory instruments.
>>
>> But that aside, there is a potential trap here that's not easy to avoid
>> (not
>> just for the case of hearing harmonics but for similar cases as well.)
>>
>> It is this:  Through this type of effort it is possible to learn to hear
>> sounds that ARE there.
>>
>> And, unfortunately, it is possible to learn to hear sounds that are NOT
>> there.  And it can be difficult to tell the difference.  Sometimes
>> impossible.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sabutin [mailto:sabutin at mindspring.com]
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Can't hear 'em? You've been too well trained by society. They're up 
>> there.
>>
>> Two ways to predict them so that you CAN hear them, and one way to test
>> for
>> them.
>>
>> #1-Just play them on a keyboard instrument. You KNOW what hey are, right?
>> Same proportions as the overtone series above pedal Bb.
>> Octave, P5th, P4th, Maj 3rd, min 3rd, funny min 3rd, funny Maj 2nd, maj
>> 2nd,
>> etc. on up.
>>
>> The easiest ones to hear and isolate are usually the 5th, 6th and 7th
>> partials. That is, the 2 octaves plus a Maj. 3rd, P 5th and min 7th above
>> the note being played. Play them on a piano, get them in your ear, and
>> then
>> try to hear and isolate them above whatever note you are playing.
>>
>> #2-Learn to isolate them with your voice. This is the best way, because 
>> it
>> is physical and organic. You FEEL them.
>>
>> <snip>
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>
>